PS – If you are heading to Korea, you should check our our article of the best day trips from Seoul and the coolest neighborhoods in Seoul!
A few days ago, Brian in Jeollanam-do posted about a story recently published in the Chosun Ilbo bashing foreign English teachers. Hat tip to the Korea Beat, who translated the story here. Earlier today, the Korea Beat posted this little tidbit about a panel of foreign women bashing foreign guys who go for Korean girls:
On the 6th the beautiful women of KBS2’s “Chat With Beauties” spoke critically on the topic of “Indecent Foreigners Living in Korea.”
After choosing as the worst foreigners in Korea those foreigners who always speak English or their native language, never learning Korean, and easily meet Korean women they said, “most western men approach Korean women by saying they want to learn Korean.”
They also said there are many foreigners who live in Korea for many years but speak poor Korean. Among the criticisms a particularly strong one came from Japan-born Sayuri, who said, “when you go to a foreign country, learning that country’s language is proper etiquette.”
They also implicitly criticized the attitude of Korean women who get involved with “tall foreign men who speak English.”
Kenya-born Euphracia said, “in Korea it seems that if you’re tall and just speak English well, you’re treated as the king… My other Kenyan friends were so surprised when they went out with they Korean girlfriends.” Germany-born Vera said, “if a German guy is tall then everybody thinks he’s handsome in Korea… They come to Korea and start acting like Casanova.”
UK-born Eva said, “foreign men who were not popular in their home countries are treated like kings… It’s so strange that western men who of course have very plan features are always being followed by pretty girls.”
While my thoughts in both these regards are like everyone else (try publishing facts instead of stupid racist/xenophobic crap), it got me to thinking about why Korean girls might go for Western guys. There are probably more than these eight reasons, but having dated some Korean women during my stay here (and asking Korean women the same question), I’d like to think I have an idea.
1. We don’t care about S-lines, V-lines, X-lines, or any of that BS. That we don’t typically read the silly places where people make a big deal out of those makes it easier to ignore them.
2. Free English lessons. Walking English dictionary. We’re English teachers, and we have no problem helping you with your homework (as long as we don’t spend all our time on your homework!)
3. We’re more comfortable if you’re not anorexic. I’ve yet to hear a Western guy actually say to a Korean girl, ‘if only you were a little skinnier’… Most Korean women don’t get that ‘you look great the way you are’ message very often.
4. We make money, and we’re not afraid to spend it when we go out. While we don’t want to buy every round (we do like it when our women buys us a drink every now and then), we have no problem putting down manwon for your favorite imported beer. No, we’re not rich, like TI from “Whatever You Like” fame, but we’re definitely better than the Weird Al remake or the Obama remake (seriously funny).
5. Westerners are more likely to treat you as an equal. It’s not a universal concept among all Westerners yet, but it’s a concept that Westerners have had decades more practice at.
6. We offer a way out of Korea. If you’ve been looking for a way out, Western guys do offer a way.
7. We don’t really like the flower boys either. We’re a bit more manly than that. So what if our closet isn’t overflowing with tight dress shirts and polka-dot bow ties? Jeans and nice-looking shirts are all the Western guys need for going out after work is done. Also, if we get a flat tire while you’re driving, we can change the darn tire ourselves without worrying about getting our pretty shirt dirty or calling some errand man.
8. We can talk about interesting things – much more interesting than work, clothes, drinking, and that crazy boss of ours. Quite a few of us sing, dance, play an instrument, write, cook, act, and many other things.
I should go on record by stating that I’m currently dating a beautiful foreign lady, and have been enjoying my time with her thoroughly. To the foreign ladies from the show, try not to be jealous or threatened just because you’re not the popular ‘miss thing’ anymore. You might be beautiful, but if that’s all you have I’m afraid you’ll be looking for a bit longer…
Did I miss a reason why Korean girls go for Western guys? Comments are open – play nice.
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You missed at least one:
Rebellion against the parental units. Nothing will stick in the craw of a nationalistic old ajoesshi than his daughter dating a dirty foreigner. Take THAT, dad! (not very common, but I’ve seen a case or two of this over the years)
My wife has told me that less drinking was a strong selling point in my favor.
I would like to add that I have been living in Korea for four months now (and have yet to try any serious dating, I just got out of a three year relationship before I came here), but I have received a lot of pressure from my male and female Korean coworkers to find a Korean girlfriend. I am asked weekly by numerous coteachers at my schools if I have found a Korean girlfriend yet. I have also received numerous offers from my Korean coteachers to set me up with blind dates.
Yes, there is a lot of resentment for Western men dating Korean women, but there is also a lot of pressure too (or at least I have felt like it).
Jacob
http://roksojourn.blogspot.com
And let’s not forget all the burdensome family ritual stuff that a wife is typically expected to take care of for a Korean husband’s family (i.e., Chuseok, Seollal, Jaesa, etc.)
Thinking about it, almost none of the male teachers I know have a girlfriend out here. Maybe it’s a phenomenon exclusive to Seoul (I’m out in Yongin, and tbh not really familiar with Itaewon/Hongdae at night).
JungMi I think hits it. I don’t know many women in Canada that are running around screaming what a dating paradise they’re livin in.
If my experience dating Korean women is the same as a Korean woman dating a Western guy, then I would have to say it’s a zero sum gain. There are many positives about dating Korean women (relative to Western women) but then there are negatives (relative to Western women).
It all depends on what you’re currently looking for, I suppose. And your sitch can radically change. What was a positive can quickly become a negative.
One of the positives I’ve got from Korean women in Korea is Western men tend to be less formal and try to make their date laugh. If you teach children, you probably have 14 dates worth of cute stories about Korean kids. Sure fire material. Korean men, on the other hand, tend to be more serious (wanting to make it appear like they’re good husband material).
Western women dating Korean men seem to enjoy the school boyish romantic things they do, they don’t dance around what they really want, and the attentiveness. (Yeah I know if we did it, we’d be considered stalkers…but some women allow for cultural differences.)
Chris in SK’s list should, of course, not be read as if whitey has all the positives and since he has positives, Korean men have only negatives.
I should also add, many of us treat our Korean gf like she’s the most beautiful woman we’ve ever dated. Mostly because she is. We tell her that. We act like we really think that. It’s quite powerful, I think, to a young Korean woman who has gone through life thinking she’s average, maybe always getting criticism about her small eyes, her sharp cheekbones, her nose, her being a “flower pig” or whatever from a critical mother or other relative.
And then who of us doesn’t treat our Korean GF like a genius, a life saver, when she’s able to get things done in the K-sphere for us. She’s like Kal-El away from Krypton.
Again, maybe she’s had a life where she’s had a mother or relative always bust on her: she can’t make kimchi, she can’t sew, she can’t do x/y/z she’ll never get a husband, she’s stupid, she’s useless, she’s lazy, her grades are poor.
But then around us she feels like she has super powers. She can see the real joy when we do backflips because she was able to get us a ATM card, smooth out an issue with immigration, work the blower and find out information…
The stereotype on Japanese dramas is that foreign guys, particularly as husbands, are more willing to help with the housework and (eventually) childcare (at least, they do more than zero), are more emotionally accessible, and spend more time at home.
I think men are fundamentally same wherever I go. (-,.-)
The stereotype on Japanese dramas is that foreign guys, particularly as husbands, are more willing to help with the housework and (eventually) childcare (at least, they do more than zero), are more emotionally accessible, and spend more time at home.
I’ve never met any woman who thought domestication was particularly sexy and attractive.
Hey babe…I can cook, clean, wash the clothes, change the diapers.
Nope, I don’t think that works as a good pick-up line.
Great comments everyone – keep ’em coming!
@JungMi: That many men may have told you ‘you’re beautiful’ validates it. Most Western men would indeed say that Asian women are beautiful, perhaps thanks to the way they are portrayed in Western media. They’re exotic; they take care of themselves; they stay in shape; and so on.
We could also say that women are fundamentally the same – they seek to be loved, cared for, and respected for the unique person they are. I submit that Korean women may not be ‘excited’ about the dating scene as mindmetoo says, but if one chooses to date, one has a choice on whom that’ll be.
Everybody – there’s just about enough new reasons in the comment board for a part 2. Anybody got any more? Full credit goes to those who comment :)
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It might be inappropriate to write my personal things here, but I am compelled to do so.
I lived in England for 3 and half years and used to meet tones of guys who told “You’re beautiful!” almost every day regardless their race and occupation at everywhere even including a library and a police station. However I dated with none of them.
If a girl met this sort of guy from time to time, she might be touched, but I was always in doubt. “Are they O.K?”- and unlike most men think, women do think that is quite odd- again regardless their race.
One obvious fact is that there is a certain prejudice or male fantasy regarding ‘typical’ Asian women, and some Asian girls seem to get self-esteem from them, too. However I am not inclined to that deal at all, since I do not need it and that is not my cup of tea.
However well, people..and that is a matter of one’s taste, which should remain in one’s choice. And eventually what people wish and expect was same considering my observation. Everyone wanted to be beloved and accepted and wanted to find someone they can really love with- so I wrote men are fundamentally same- I really think so.
Finally, regarding Western men and me, only very best advantage was ‘they never ask why I am so different from usual people.’ Most of them just thought ‘Oh, because she is a foreigner, so she may not know about my culture very well’-sorry, but I am not. But this works very well. I do not need to explain ‘Why I am so different’-like Nietzsche with millions words, yet can be relaxed in silence.
And I agree with Mr. Kobukson.
Personally I do not find a man cook is typically attractive to me, rather I prefer a man who can work better at his job, since that is much better for many reasons, such as his social confidence and self-esteem. I think not so many men would boast “Listen, guys! I can cook very well!! Hahaha!” at a pub when he is drinking with only his male friends….So… My problem? I can cook well and work better than most of them….
While there was an interesting story according to an Irish flatmate. She told “It doesn’t matter if a man can earn million pounds, but he can’t cook. I can hire a cook.”
(-.-) well, again ‘finding a millionaire!’ is not my cup of tea at all, but what a nice idea…
My Korean girlfriend says we give bigger praise and we do it more often. And in turn, we offer more sympathy when things turn sour.
And she informs me many Korean men say sorry without even knowing what they should be sorry for. i.e. being treated as an equal is better than being treated like a princess.
And she likes the idea that in Western movies, fathers are often kind and sweet whereas in Korean movies, the father will often be strict and kingly.
PS And the high bridge on our noses. Yojachingu is saying maybe she’s watched too many Hollywood movies kk!
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The reason “Korean girls” go for “Western boys” is because 1. Western boys are in Korea. and 2. There are Korean girls here. The fundamental point being that males and females are pretty much the same wherever you go. It’s all about different personality preferences and attraction…attraction not only being in the physical sense. Every reason offered in the posts that I’ve read can be applied in any country to any ethnic class for example, less drinking, rebellion against parental units, the potential to relocate to a different country, the exotic appearance, stereotypical beliefs, the constant compliments, readily available and willingness to drop some cash,etc…etc…these are all reasons for females to like or dislike males and vice versa in any environment whether it be in Korea, Istanbul or Walla Walla Washington. The mere idea of raising this as a subject of a forum is really just comparing the stereotypes of asian cultural differences against that of the western and that’s exactly what it is, Stereotyping. Here’s a suggestion on a title for a forum. “Reasons and theories on why males and females are attracted to those outside of their own culture and heritage”. Opinions anyone?
I’d have to agree with Kangaroo on this one.The underlying factor here is attraction.I’m a foreign lady living in Seoul and the dating scene here is about as random as it is at home. You like who you like at the end of the day.Sometimes it’s more biology than sociology.It isn’t always easy to pin down romantic motives whether it be companionship, affection, security, curiosity, or loneliness. Whether you are foreign or local: TREAT OTHERS WITH RESPECT!
Sure women and men are the same whereever you go… yadayadayada
What about social pressures to achieve a certain level in society in men? What about overscruitinization of women to keep their reputation spotless, pure and innocent? Are they the same in every country and culture? I think not…
The only similarity between western women and Korean women is biology (Although some would argue even this >.<)<--- OK that was uncalled for...but I couldn't resist^^ Korean women are overwhelmed by “남는 눈의식한것” the feeling of self-concousness brought on by overscruitinizing peers. I work in a company of 600 Koreans and am the only whitey there. Korean women at my company avoid me like I have the plague. However I don’t see the same treatment when I’m outside of work. If you ask me physical attraction in our DNA. Let me explain- I will try to be short. 2 brother are born… 1 ends up attracted to women who look like mom and the other attracted to exotic women…experts say the reason for this is brother 1 is more likely to stay with the group and hold it together while brother #2 goes out into the world seeking new DNA to eventually bring back to the group and help keep it strong. If you ask me Korea has been isolated in the same gene pool for so long they have no choice but to branch out or die off…Why else would the birth rate be halted and divorce be through the roof…women’s lib. can only explain so much
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That ignorant crap lifer11 wrote is the stupidest shit I ever heard…You’re a moron trying to sound intelligent…it’s no wonder the Korean women avoid you like the plague…they’re probably allergic to idiots.
@kangaroo: Divisive topics notwithstanding, personal attacks are not permitted. Please watch your tone in future comments or your comments may be deleted in the future.
“Reasons and theories on why males and females are attracted to those outside of their own culture and heritage”.
Dearest kangaroo
read my 2 brothers theory…
it’s no wonder the Korean women avoid you like the plague…they’re probably allergic to idiots.
I have to chucle at this^^ you obviously don’t know me at all
“The reason “Korean girls” go for “Western boys” is because 1. Western boys are in Korea. and 2. There are Korean girls here. The fundamental point being that males and females are pretty much the same wherever you go.”
Is this why I have been attracted to asian girls since I was 8 years old even though I had never met one?
I’m an ignorant idiot moron? hmmm yes your “men are men and women are women” theory is trully profound
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came across this whilst searching for something completely different. however, kudos to the OP for tackling a rather sensitive and shoo-ed up topic. it’s a shame things turned into a flame war towards the end but seeing as how this topic is still relevant allow me to add another bit of salt to the bucket.
i believe that your opinions, if they have to be, can be categorized into the following two –
1. believing that this phenomenon of korean girls dating non-koreans is blatant racial stereotyping of dating scene that occurs everywhere, and…
2. that it is an occurrence fueled by certain traits present in non-korean males that korean males do not possess. or by social brainwashing of korean girls. or any other millions of things which you could attribute to korean girls digging non-korean guys.
i agree to a degree with both sides, but i don’t believe the problem is so simple – we do have both korean girls who specifically will date no one but non-koreans and non-korean guys who will take the girls coming to them either knowing that advantage or believing that the girls truly like them for who they are regardless of their race. and there’s no proof supporting either side of the argument.
true, we have guys who would never be able to get girls outside of korea come here and turn casanova – but korean guys will go over to china and do the same thing. assuming all human beings are equal, koreans are not really at a loss for doing so – it occurs everywhere, just at a different rate at different times. eventually there will come a point in time when korean girls will have different standards when it comes to dating non-korean guys – possibly not the same as an american dating an american, but foreigners are being more commonplace in korea and the novelty of being a foreigner is becoming less and less. most koreans spend at least a year or two overseas now – and are slowly but surely adopting a different standard for looking at a person.
having a different skin color does not make one guy superior to another. and if a girl is stupid enough to think that, then she deserves whoever it is that she will sleep/marry/have children with. and no, the genetics theory doesn’t hold, neither, because according to genetic biologists, korean gene, amongst all asians, is the one most resistant to change – hence interbreeding will not impact korean gene pool as it would an any other gene pool.
to sum up the whole thing – korean girls are undereducated/unfamiliar with what a caucasian/african-american should be like, and the standards they adhere to in order to be considered a “good catch” in their native homeland. but they will catch on to it eventually. until then, let racial stereotyping girls and boys have their fun (and regrets, possibly)
This can be easily generalized to any group of men and women anywhere. I think that a lot of people fail to address somewhat of a primer effect.
As you stated, a lot of “Western” guys believe in the whole submissive Asian woman stereotype. But many people do not address the notion that having this idea in your head can primer or lead to feelings of easily attainable success. Confidence is attractive to women in many different cultures, especially Western. If you were to use that same confidence you used to meet a Korean girl on an American girl, you will be successful as well.
And it is kinda despicable that someone would go to another country (as a “teacher” for god sakes, considered one of the most ethically trustworthy professions) specifically to try and get some korean girls.
I read in another blog an enormous amount of teachers dating students. That is some of the most unprofessional sh*t I have ever heard of. They must really be losers in their home country and that’s pretty pathetic.
Going back to the original post:
They also said there are many foreigners who live in Korea for many years but speak poor Korean. Among the criticisms a particularly strong one came from Japan-born Sayuri, who said, “when you go to a foreign country, learning that country’s language is proper etiquette.”
Sayuri should tell that to the oodles of Koreans abroad who cannot speak the language of the country they’re in and don’t want to learn… and in all too many cases, who also avoid socializing with (or talk down to, or openly revile) the natives in those places.
Seriously.
As for the why Korean women go for foreign men, the real question, as Robert Koehler pointed out ages ago, is why, proportionately, so few Korean men end up with Western women.
(After all, everything being said about attraction and so on is fine and dandy, but the number of Korean-male/Western-female couples one sees is FAR less than the opposite pairing.
All of the standard reasons come into play. Are they generalizations? Yes. I know couples of this type, but they’re rarer than the Western male/Korean female pairing. Anyone who’s interacted with Korean men and Korean women has at least some idea why this is the case:
– Korean guys tend to be more “conservative” (thank you required military service)
– Korean guys tend to be less often really good at English
– Korean guys tend to be more likely to have strong family pressures to marry a good Korean girl (who can cook Korean food, who’ll put up with mother-in-law crap, etc.)
– The “normal expectations” of relationships mesh more easily between Korean women and Western men than between Korean men and Western women.
That is to say, it’s much easier for Korean women and Western men to get together in a way that’s mutually satisfying; wonderful matches of the opposite kind are possible, but usually require both the Western woman and especially the Korean man to be farther from the norm in a number of ways than is required of a Korean woman with a Western man.
One is tempted to pull out Frantz Fanon’s Black Skin, White Masks and compare his four-way analysis to race and relationships in a colonial (Martinican?) setting to the Korean context, just to see what one comes up with.
I very respectfully think this thread is retarded. Western guys are more “interesting” and have various hobbies, spend more money, make good money, and what again? Hahahahaha. That’s really really funny. And what about Korean guys? They are all uninteresting, poor, uneducated and ill-fashioned people?
Seriously, I think most Korean girls who hang out with foreigners (mostly English teachers) are losers, and usually slightly abnormal. They are either not well educated, ex bar workers, or they come from relatively bad families or poor suburbs. They tend to be quite ugly too and have a fixation on improving their English above all other things. Hey, I’m not saying this is the case for ALL Koreans girls with western guys, but it sure is for a great deal of them. And lots of the guys with these girls are also losers. Why is that? Ask yourself where you met your Korean girlfriend. Was it in a bar? If you answered yes to that question, you’re off to a pretty bad start. If it was in a bar full of foreigners, you are probably fitting very well in my description. If it was through an internet meeting site, probably even worse.
Why is that losers who couldnt get a girl in their own country can in Korea? Simply because they are dating similarly loser and uneducated girls in Korea that only want to learn english. And yes, remember, there are lots of intelligent and pretty girls in Korea, but also lots of stupid and abnormal ones.
I lived with an American and another foreigner one time (in Korea), and, what a surprise, both had their loser Korean g/f and both of these guys were actually losers, and their apartment were filthy just as much as themselves. For Christ’s sake, we didn’t even have a bloody broom in the place, just to tell you how much they didn’t care about cleanliness. The American guy’s g/f was an ex bar worker (that means, barely a half-prostitute, if you still don’t know what a bar means in Korea, you have to differentiate HOF from BAR), and the other guy’s g/f was a kind of a soft headed young girl who told me she was studying “coffee” at university, what a joke, and who obviously lacked some education and brain. Oh and both guys had been living in Korea for more than a year and both of them barely knew how to speak a few words of Korean.
Most intelligent and pretty Korean women tend to definitely stay with Korean guys, and generally are far from interested by foreigners, or at least average English teaching foreigners. How many of you have a girlfriend who graduated from a good university? Or who could achieve a master degree? How many of you have a g/f who actually loves Korea and wish to stay there, and are not just dating you as an “escape” or to get “free English lesson”? Ask yourself these questions.
This is coming from a white Caucasian guy…
Johnny Croquette: I couldn’t agree with you more. You’ve hot the nail on the head!! Bravo!
oops typo…You’ve HIT the nail on the head…
Almost eight months later and the comments are still coming…
Seriously, I think most Korean girls who hang out with foreigners (mostly English teachers) are losers, and usually slightly abnormal. They are either not well educated, ex bar workers, or they come from relatively bad families or poor suburbs.
Perhaps they are slightly abnormal – and there’s nothing wrong with that if the culture ostracizes you from doing what you want. Would that label be so bad if infanticide were the cultural norm? Should I care if she came from a ‘bad’ family (how do we define that, anyway?) or a poor suburb? People don’t choose the parents we’re born to.
Ask yourself where you met your Korean girlfriend. Was it in a bar? If you answered yes to that question, you’re off to a pretty bad start. If it was in a bar full of foreigners, you are probably fitting very well in my description.
Bars are fairly common places to meet people in most countries that serve alcohol – and the people that go to them often seek people like them. One wouldn’t look for a Buddhist in a Christian church, or a post-graduate fellow at a rodeo either. Whether you go with friends or are looking for someone, that type of social environment is at least one thing you share with the other people in the room. Nothing wrong with that.
Most intelligent and pretty Korean women tend to definitely stay with Korean guys, and generally are far from interested by foreigners, or at least average English teaching foreigners.
Fair enough – let the woman decide which guy she’d like to be with. The ‘average’ teacher in this case has a college degree, a passing interest in foreign cultures, a clean background check and bill of health, and possibly some ambitions at doing something more than being a teacher (or salaryman or whatever) for the rest of his life. It may not be Elimindate, but a person shouldn’t be ostracized or criticized for choosing the ‘wrong’ person.
That foreigners are less tied to the cultural norms is a HUGE plus – we’re far less likely to engage in the negative aspects, while the positive aspects can be learned / taught as need be. The key is the choice – and that choice remains in the hands of each person, not the culture they were born into.
Perhaps they are slightly abnormal – and there’s nothing wrong with that if the culture ostracizes…
Hi Chris. First of all, the personality and many more things associated with a person’s development are heavily influenced by their background, that is, the love and education they received from their families, school and the general environment in which they lived during their childhood, especially. As you may know, Korea is a quite different country than the one you have been born and raised. In Korea, good schools and good environments are found in better suburbs (as in most countries I guess), but in Korea this is particularly the case, also because there is a larger disparity between the poor and the rich than in some other countries. People from bad suburbs will naturally have more uneducated parents and a bad environment. And believe me this really affects a person’s development and education. A “bad family” can be defined with common sense… But I will not get too much into details for now.
Bars are fairly common places to meet people in most countries that serve alcohol – and the people that go to them often seek people like them. One wouldn’t look for a Buddhist…
You got the point. People go to bars to meet people like them. If a Korean girl goes to a foreigner bar (or simply a BAR in Korea, which again is different from a common Korean drinking place, namely HOF), that means she wants to meet foreigners… or else. I can tell by your answers that I hit a sensitive chord and that you most likely met your g/f in a bar and you perfectly fit in my description, or am I wrong? Personally, I wouldn’t go to a bar to meet my future g/f/wife, but that’s just me. I prefer by far a girl who doesn’t drink, among other things.. Bars are also a common place for one-night stands, again that can tell a lot about a girl who drinks a lot and goes to bars often.
Fair enough – let the woman decide which guy she’d like to be with. The ‘average’ teacher in this case has a college degree, a passing interest in foreign cultures, a clean background check and bill of health, and possibly some ambitions at doing something more than being a teacher…
You seem to really idealize your view of foreigners in Korea. Many (if not most) foreigners in Korea are only there for the money, and most of them probably barely even heard of Korea before arriving here, and they are not interested to learn any culture nor the language. Do you know many foreigners who actually can speak Korean relatively well? Also many foreigners totally misinterpret or just can’t understand many Korean cultural facets and make “Korea bashing” one of their favorite pastime.
“possibly some ambitions at doing something more than being a teacher”. Then what have you been doing in Korea for so many years? And what about all the other foreigners that teach English? In what do they have more ambition than a regular similarly well-educated Korean? Your argument doesn’t make sense. Again, I think the whole “Western guys are more “interesting” and have various hobbies, spend more money, make good money” is a seriously retarded statement.
I have personally come in close contact with foreigners in Korea and my opinion of them or their g/f is very low. Some stand out, but the majority have very very average girlfriends that just want a way out of their country or that have an obsession for English learning. Don’t ask yourself why most Korean hate Korean girls with Western b/f…
@Johnny Croquette: you most likely met your g/f in a bar and you perfectly fit in my description, or am I wrong?
On all cases, no. The two Korean women I’ve dated have become through friends; the American I’m dating right now and I met at a swing dance :)
Many (if not most) foreigners in Korea are only there for the money, and most of them probably barely even heard of Korea before arriving here, and they are not interested to learn any culture nor the language.
I’d agree with the first point – and there’s nothing wrong with having money as a reason to come. If it’s the ONLY one it might be because the offer is enticing. Offered the choice of two equal jobs, where one pays 50% more money than the other, you’d better believe I’m taking the higher paying job. If money isn’t important at all, there are plenty of places to use one’s skills (orphanages, charities, etc.)
Then what have you been doing in Korea for so many years? And what about all the other foreigners that teach English? In what do they have more ambition than a regular similarly well-educated Korean?
Over the past almost-two years in Korea, I’ve written a book about education (available on amazon.com), kept up an extensive blog and travel schedule (one new place / event a week), and am hoping to progress towards something else. I don’t know what my future holds – but I’m working toward a better one. Ambition-wise, it’s a perception – and it depends on your baseline. If we can look at every NET, from those in KOTESOL to those getting wasted at the bar, as a whole, I *think* it’s a more active / ambitious group of people.
I have personally come in close contact with foreigners in Korea and my opinion of them or their g/f is very low. Some stand out, but the majority have very very average girlfriends that just want a way out of their country or that have an obsession for English learning. Don’t ask yourself why most Korean hate Korean girls with Western b/f.
Then that would mean the better-quality girls are going for Korean men – which can’t be judged quantitatively and admittedly impossible to prove. I’ve yet to hear a complaint from a Korean guy that we’re taking all the ‘bad’ or ‘undesirable’ girls; even if we were, why would they hate us for that? Because we’re foreigners?
Let people choose for themselves – going back to the original article for a second, these eight are simply possible reasons. We’ve read more of them in the comments above. I’ll go on the record by saying I’d love to hear the opposite perspective (Eight reasons Korean girls go for Korean guys, or other combinations of Koreans and foreigners).
Ambition-wise, it’s a perception – and it depends on your baseline. If we can look at every NET, from those in KOTESOL to those getting wasted at the bar, as a whole, I *think* it’s a more active / ambitious group of people.
I think that’s a totally random argument and very out of scope. Getting wasted at the bar? What, foreigners don’t get wasted at the bars? Foreigners don’t use prostitute services? Foreigners don’t make any trouble in Korea? Foreigners in Korea all have ambitions, hobbies, healthy way of life, desire to learn, ethical conduct?
Who are you to say that foreigners in Korea have more ambition than Koreans? I think that’s a gross misinterpretation of reality and a totally false statement. I think most foreigners in Korea are racist, are totally unable to understand Korean culture and only see its bad sides. Most of them go to bars several times a week and for a good part have no teaching skills whatsoever and do not care too much about improving them for that matter. Caring about money is OK, but I made that point because you said “foreigners are interested in other cultures blah blah blah”, which is for most, not the reason at all why they came here…
If the Korean people didn’t have ambition and a desire to learn and progress, they wouldn’t have gone from one of the poorest countries in the world 60 years ago to the 9th biggest economy in the world today..
@Johnny: At the risk of disenfranchising an impassioned reader, this will likely be my last response on this topic.
NET = Native English Teacher (aka a foreigner, although certainly not the only kind). Please reread my previous comment.
Caring about money is OK, but I made that point because you said “foreigners are interested in other cultures blah blah blah”, which is for most, not the reason at all why they came here…
I submit they are – whether one likes it or not, it’s impossible to completely shut one’s self off from the local culture. For most, I suspect it’s not the primary reason. Maybe the money is a primary reason for the majority – according to the poll I did a couple months ago, it was the biggest reason. So what? If I find a job in another country that will treat me like a person and pay more money, it’s certainly a consideration. See http://chrisinsouthkorea.blogspot.com/2009/09/poll-results.html for those results.
If the Korean people didn’t have ambition and a desire to learn and progress, they wouldn’t have gone from one of the poorest countries in the world 60 years ago to the 9th biggest economy in the world today..
Ambition did play a role in that economic miracle. On the hard work side of things, Koreans are unmatched – according to the OECD they work more hours than any other OECD country. I would make a difference on how much ambition is personally motivated vs. ‘keeping up with the Kim family’, but that’s a matter for another post.
Respectfully, signing off :)
Ambition did play a role in that economic miracle. On the hard work side of things, Koreans are unmatched – according to the OECD they work more hours than any other OECD country. I would make a difference on how much ambition is personally motivated vs. ‘keeping up with the Kim family’, but that’s a matter for another post.
Dude I had some respect towards you but now I’m finding out you’re just another English-teaching idiot with retarded thoughts and nothing to back up your derogatory claims. Koreans are working hard and are ambitious not personally-wise but because they want to “keep up with the Kim family”? What is that supposed to mean? Are you actually serious? I’m not Korean, but such statements are truly retarded and piss me off.
Oh yeah, and by the way, the fact that you had 2 Korean girlfriends withing the space of less than 2 years just proves my claims. Maybe both of them used you for some English free lessons and dumped you afterward, or maybe they just found out you were a loser? Or maybe both? Or maybe you dumped them first because you realized they were losers too? In any case, I wouldn’t be surprised you would lie about where you actually met them.
Good luck with your blog and amazing ambitions dude, I’m sure you’ll go far in life. I hope you will be able to sell more than 100 copies of your book.
I wasn’t going to waste any time on this crap of Johnny Croquette’s, but now that he’s being such an asshole, I think it’s worth pointing something out:
His thinking, reasoning, and preferred form of discourse bears a very striking resemblance to that of a certain class of young male Koreans — late teen to mid-twenties, quite well-off, and educated abroad just enough to have the mostly good (if occasionally somewhat awkward) grasp of English he has demonstrated, while having spent just enough of his formative years in Korea to have acquired the particular forms of sexism, racism, and classism he also demonstrates. His over-the-top and naive nationalism — thinking bad of any Korean woman who doesn’t “love her country and want to stay there” — and his derision for people from “bad families” — a concept that is, in my experience, widespread among Koreans but outright anachronistic among Westerners, to the point of sounding quaintly Victorian — as well as the way he describes “foreigners” in every instance, and as his constant negativity towards Korean women who aren’t “normal” (oh sin of sins!) all make him sound as if he’s lying when he (all too explicitly, I’d say) claims he is a “Caucasian.” Johnny Croquette, the persona claiming to be a white man but ranting like your standard Korean netizen (except in better English) very likely is a sockpuppet of some kind.
And recognized as such, his writing exactly highlights the thing that the Korean women he puts down find refreshing about Western men: we don’t usually think the way he unwittingly reveals he thinks.
I had a LOT more to say, and I may post it elsewhere and link from here, but anyway, that needed saying. Also, while Korean workers do clock more hours than anyone in the developed world, this is hardly something to be proud of. More ambition might translate into some fighting to improve the working life and worker’s rights, so that less work soldiering would be necessary and people could see their families. Boosting productivity a little would be easy, given how poor it is compared to the rest of the OECD. (See: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/27/business/worldbusiness/27iht-workcol28.html You never hear people like JC bragging about that little data point, since it pretty much destroys any reason in putting in those 44 (underreported, to be sure, in many cases) hours per week.) Ah, if only people loved their families enough to collectively fight for the right to see them a few nights a week, huh?
Sorry to deceive you but I’m a Caucasian male and I didn’t lie about that at all, why would I anyway? The reason my English might be awkward sometimes (could you please point out where?), is that my native language is French.
I come from a very middle-class family and we were actually borderline poor when I was young, due to my single mother raising 3 children by herself. I am quite well-educated indeed and that is a personal goal of myself to learn as much as possible on a broad range of subjects, simply because I like to learn.
Also, what is “Korean netizen” supposed to mean? Again, that’s a very trendy term used by “foreigners” in Korea, I’ve heard it more than once, but if you care to look it up in the dictionary, it simply means “a user of the internet”, so I don’t know why everybody keeps using it as a derogatory noun.
Finally, you might be surprised but I do have a Korean girlfriend myself. This doesn’t stop me from having critical views of cheap Korean girls in Korea and retarded foreigners, and yes I am a “foreigner” too. To draw you the picture, I don’t like retards. Could that be a form of elitism? Maybe, I don’t care.
Finally, I think you missed quite the point. I am not in favor of over-nationalism, at all. I simply think that girls that get boyfriends just to escape their country (which is by far not a third-world country or anything like that, where in that case I would understand), is somewhat.. sad. Just the same thing for girls who only get a guy for his money, you get the picture? If the girl really likes the guy no worries, but anyway. All this was to prove my point that Korean girls with foreigner boyfriends tend to be destitute, ill-educated or etc. in GENERAL, again…
Ha, not to be insulting, but, okay, being some French guy who just wandered into Korea a year ago and who thinks he knows everything is almost as believable as you being an arrogant, spoiled Korean teen abroad.
Western bloggers use the term “netizen” for Koreans who behave badly online because that’s the term used by Koreans themselves for those people. Simple. I thought you lived in Korea once?
The reason my English might be awkward sometimes (could you please point out where?)…
Sure, if you want pointers, just enroll in my class. It’s my day job, after all.
I come from a very middle-class family and we were actually borderline poor when I was young… I am quite well-educated indeed…
But Korean women in similar straits can never demonstrate this behaviour? You do indeed have a lot to learn. Take it from me, many Korean women pull themselves up out of poverty through education. Many of them end up “different” and I’ve dated a few myself.
Finally, you might be surprised but I do have a Korean girlfriend myself. This doesn’t stop me from having critical views of cheap Korean girls in Korea and retarded foreigners, and yes I am a “foreigner” too.
Wow, so you had to go to Korea to get a girlfriend, huh? At least, to judge you by the same logic that you seem happily to apply (“in general”) to other Westerners in Korea. Now I get it: you’re just parroting her words. Yawn.
To draw you the picture, I don’t like retards. Could that be a form of elitism? Maybe, I don’t care.
Yes, I thought I detected some degree of self-loathing in your post. Here’s one English hint: educated people don’t dismiss others as retards in my language.
Wherever you got the idea that most Korean women dating Western men are just seeking escape from Korea, it’s outdated and plain wrong. (Also, the sort of idea you might absorb talking to Koreans who have no idea what they’re talking about, for example — just like your conviction that the Miracle on the Han was all due to ambition, and not the result of top-down dictatorial policies, exploitation of the poorest classes and of a society used to absolutist rule, and pure desperation. Yes, an amazing transformation but not an unproblematic one, involving the hobbling of civil society, the jettisoning of traditional culture and the arts, and a very clear process by which the machine of modernization chewed up and spat out oodles of families in the “bad family” form you see today.)
All this was to prove my point that Korean girls with foreigner boyfriends tend to be destitute, ill-educated or etc. in GENERAL, again…
But you have only proved that you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about, as well as surprisingly sexist and classist. Not worth the time to continue this discussion.
Wherever you got the idea that most Korean women dating Western men are just seeking escape from Korea, it’s outdated and plain wrong.
You obviously don’t follow our conversation. I said in SOME CASES that happened, not most cases. That is because you blamed me of “thinking bad of any Korean woman who doesn’t “love her country and want to stay there”. And then I replied with my example, of being with a person for the strict material (or else) purpose.
I gave other reasons of girls with foreigners being losers, such as their tendency to have a fixation at learning English above all, their average uneducation, fact that they might be bar workers-or frequent BARs…
Concerning Korea’s miracle of Han River, yes we can criticize the “top-down dictatorial policies” that were in place during most of the 70’s and beyond, but that doesn’t change anything. You can have top-down dictatorial regimes in many countries in the world as we can see throughout history and in the present days, but that didn’t make these states economic miracles, if not the opposite. Do you think a (coercive or not) government is enough to change a whole nation and suddenly make them hard workers, entrepreneurs and ambitious?
“An amazing transformation but not an unproblematic one”. Did I say there was no problems? The root of capitalism and globalization is inequalities, no one can escape that. I was simply pointing out that at least Koreans managed to seriously improve their living standards over the past 60 years almost like no other countries that were in a such situation. You might say the sole reason for that is with quasi-dictatorial successive powers, but I think while it did certainly play a part in that, it is far from depicting what truly happened. Korea is still today an extremely dynamic country evolving at an incredible rate, and many old-generation thinking have been completely transformed with the birth of newer generations. You think the Koreans don’t wish they would have to work less to care more for their family? You think Koreans don’t care about their family? And yet they have the highest amount of money per capita spent on children’s education..
Finally, because you didn’t read well my earlier comments, I deplored cheap uneducated girls and I specified those who were not interested in educating themselves further, etc. Those who pull themselves out of poverty or harsh situations through education or pure will/ambition are very worth praising.
Finally, I didn’t meet my g/f in Korea and you know nothing about me and my background so please stop making insinuations.
bye
Gordsellar: You’re an idiot…another moron trying to sound intelligent. I’m sure my post will be deleted AGAIN…don’t really give a flying rats ass Chris cause you’re a loser just as well. This whole subject is retarded and the losers that keep posting ignorant crap trying to analyze such a mundane subject are even more retarded. Gordsellar seems to have taken the crap personally, hmmm wonder why? Keep it up dingleberry, just reaffirms your obvious mental disorders. Get a life! Oh an Chris, please boot me off this page, every time I try to unsubscribe I get sent to a blog page that’s written all in Korean…imagine that!
Johnny and Kangaroo,
Yawn.
Really interesting comments here even if it did degenerate into name-calling …
I must say I found salient points from most writers and if I were to generalize the Korean girls who date foreigners, I would make a similar generalization (albeit in a less negative manner) that these girls tend to have less education/privelage, less support, and more often than not they have ulterior motives (learning english or leaving korea). That said, I would like to emphasize that I’m fortunate to have found someone who doesn’t seem to fit those categories. Thus, this is strictly a generalization based (in my case and probably most other readers’) on anecdotal or personal experiences.
On a related note, perhaps this helps to explain the infrequency (comparatively) of foreigner females with Korean males.
Gendered societies (i.e. nearly all societies) have expectations for males to provide resources…money. Hence perhaps a foreigner girl would be less (or completely un-) attracted to a Korean man from a troubled background,who was poorly educated. We are all aware of the relationship between family income/education and an individuals wages.
On the flip side, the gendered expectations for women (bare children, or perhaps just sperm depot) is generally classified as more sexual and less resource (money/ability to provide) -based.
Final word: Date or screw whomever you want…Meet someone online or at a bar or meet them at an upscale coffee shop or at a bookstore or through a friend… It doesn’t matter because posts like this are just remnants of human thought. So go forth and screw (or remain celebate (sp).
** While I found bits of this discussion quite interesting, the posts which lacked emotion tended to be the most interesting. Would love to see an interjectoing from the sociology blogger guy…
@Gordseller
His thinking, reasoning, and preferred form of discourse bears a very striking resemblance to that of a certain class of young male Koreans — late teen to mid-twenties, quite well-off, and educated abroad just enough to have the mostly good (if occasionally somewhat awkward) grasp of English he has demonstrated, while having spent just enough of his formative years in Korea to have acquired the particular forms of sexism, racism, and classism he also demonstrates.
Why do you always assume that folks who don’t share your point of views are Koreans? I’m a naturalized US citizen living in New York. I was born and raised in Korea till I was 13. I thought you might want to know this. I’m asking this out of the curiosity. I’m not trying to insult you. Yes, people should be able to date whoever they want to date.
Dennis,
I “always” do that? I’m sorry, I don’t think I know you, I’m pretty sure you don’t know me, though maybe you’ve been reading my blog or maybe not. (If so, I do wish you’d point out any tendency you think you’re seeing over there, on the relevant post, instead of here where it’s just puzzling me.) As it is, it feels as if you’ve mixed me up with someone on Marmot’s or something. Either that, or your “always” is a kind of expression of frustration? I don’t know…
To be clear, and maybe you need to reread my comment, but in simpler terms, I said, “He’s saying stuff that I almost always hear in that particular form from guys with this particular well-to-do transcultural background.” I’m not trying to say all guys with that particular background are alike: I know Korean guys who’ve lived in Korea all their lives and who would never say or think that kind of crap. I know guys who return to Korea after half a life elsewhere and who actively push against those kinds of ideas. Meanwhile, I know white guys who are racist, sexist, and classist too.
But those white guys are almost never racist, sexist, and classist in those particular ways. Just as those Koreans who happen to hate black people are unlikely to make sniggering remarks about watermelon or crack babies — because those aren’t part of anti-black racism as it exists in Korean society — I’ve never seen a white Westerner (of either gender) use the particular kinds of insults he did.
It’s like saying, “Why do you assume everyone who writes stories with wizards and elves in them is a fantasy writer?” It’s because those recognizable tropes are particular to the fantasy genre, just as the assumptions in JohnnyCroquette’s comments are very clearly tropes common in Korean culture, and particularly in a specific class and gender within Korean culture, as deftly translated into English by a native speaker.
Of course, I did overlook one possibility, which is that he’s just a teenager aping D&D novelizations without reading Tolkien: maybe he’s actually French, he is a tool and he’s just taken for granted (and is parroting) the particular forms of racism, sexism, and classism he’s picked up from his lovely Korean wife and inlaws.
In any case, I want to reassure you that I’m not saying all Koreans, or Koreans-done-abroad, think the way he does. Trust me, I know. Perhaps I should have noted that in the original discussion, though on does tire of constantly disclaiming everything one says.
@Gordsellar
I get your point. I guess that I should not have use the term “always”. I’m sorry if I misjudged you. It is just that I have seen and dealt with fair amount of Caucasian-Americans who seem to go out of their ways to focus (or inform) on dark natures of other people’s culture (e.g. Asian, European, Arab, etc.). I’m speaking from first hand experience. Anyway, good luck with your Korean adventure.